« Obama's Southern hopes | Main | Mike Fitts helped us make up our minds »
Friday, 18 July 2008
Michael on the Confederate flag
Michael Rodgers, longtime correspondent here and founder of the Take Down The Flag blog, wrote this to me today, and I share it with you:
Dear Brad,
I am writing for two reasons: to point out some common things people often say that are wrong and to describe the stunning lack of leadership from our state government on this issue.First, the things that are wrong:
1) Our issue in SC is just like the issue in Mississippi or Georgia. Wrong, because our issue in South Carolina is about the third flag we fly, not about our state flag.
2) The 2/3 vote requirement for this issue is insurmountable. Wrong for two reasons:a. The 2/3 requirement is a legislative hurdle can be taken out of the way with a simple majority (1/2). Then a simple majority would be able to change rest of the law.
b. Our state government votes 2/3 all the time when they override Gov. Sanford’s veto, so in fact 2/3 routinely occurs.3) No one in our state legislature is interested in resolving this issue. Wrong, because H-3588, a bill to resolve this issue, has seven sponsors. (And as a personal opinion, I think H-3588 completes the compromise).
4) This issue is between flag supporters, who are happy, and flag opponents, who are unhappy. Wrong for four reasons:a. The issue is the FLYING of a third flag from Statehouse grounds, so the camps are flag flying supporters and flag flying opponents.
b. Flag supporters are unhappy – why else would they get so worked up all the time about this issue?
c. This issue is between the leaders of our state government, who are happy, and South Carolinians, who are unhappy.
d. The issue is actually the story (the why!) we tell when we fly or when we don’t fly the flag. (And as a personal opinion, H-3588 provides a completely consistent clarification of the story of the compromise of 2000).5) This issue is not worth our time to resolve. Wrong because this issue is
a. a defining issue for our state,
b. tearing our state apart, and
c. diminishing our state’s stature.Second, the stunning lack of leadership.
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/
Gov. Mark Sanford said, "Everybody has a different perspective. It is a deeply dividing and complex issue that we're not going to try and open and re-examine. Somebody is going to have to place a tremendous amount of political capital to pry open a compromise. This administration is not going to be doing that."
Our state government is flying the Confederate flag, and this action causes people to react viscerally. And when I say people, I am concurring with Gov. Sanford's grouping: It's a deeply dividing issue that affects everybody.
Our state government is flying the Confederate flag, and this action causes people to have enormous confusion as to the reason for this action. And when I say people, I am concurring with Gov. Sanford's grouping: Everybody has a different perspective.
Our state government is causing deep division that confuses everybody, and what does Gov. Sanford propose to do about it? Nothing.
Gov. Sanford says that this simple issue is too complex for him to re-examine. He says what he always says, which is if we're going to do anything, we've got to throw out everything we've been given and start fresh -- new constitution, new government structure, new approach to property taxes, new approach to education, etc. No wonder he doesn't have the political capital to spare for this issue!
I say that we can solve this issue by respecting the compromise and by clarifying the confusion. Our state government made a compromise in 2000, where they decided a lot of things under a lot of pressure. By and large, they did a fantastic job, under the circumstances.
One part of this compromise, the flying of the Confederate flag from Statehouse grounds, is deeply dividing everybody because everybody has a different perspective on this action. We can focus on solving this last remaining issue because the complex parts of this issue have already been solved.
We can solve this last remaining issue, the simple one, with H-3588. This bill says that confusions about racism and sovereignty can be resolved by flying our state flag in place of the Confederate flag. This bill says that confusions about respect for heritage can be resolved by commemorating Confederate Memorial Day every year by flying the Confederate flag at the flagpole where it is now.
H-3588 respects the compromise of 2000 by honoring the Confederate Soldier Monument, Confederate Memorial Day, and the Confederate flag. H-3588 clarifies the message about why our state honors the Confederate flag: because we respect the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers and not for any other reason.
Because H-3588 respects the compromise and clarifies the confusion, H-3588 completes the compromise. A leader can easily solve this problem. Who's going to step up to the plate? The governor's mansion awaits.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Posted by Brad Warthen at 01:50 PM in Blogosphere, Confederate Flag, E-mail of the Day, Feedback, Leadership, Legislature, Mail call, South Carolina, Southern discomfort
Permalink
TrackBack
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/337487/31376230
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Michael on the Confederate flag:
Comments
Resoliving what issue? There is no issue for 99.9% of South Carolinians.
Posted by: Lee Muller | Jul 18, 2008 1:59:54 PM
Lee,
Will you cite the source for your statistic? It sounds made up. And what does "resoliving" mean?
Posted by: Norm | Jul 18, 2008 2:29:05 PM
Lee's right for a once. This issue has been resolved. Brad can't even mention the horror of Phil Gramm yet he can find time for this utter non-issue.
Posted by: bud | Jul 18, 2008 2:53:16 PM
Thanks, bud.
We have a lot more important issues without a handful of people trying to create quarrels and undo compromises.
Posted by: Lee Muller | Jul 18, 2008 3:11:44 PM
I personally thought the compromise was pretty reasonable (as long as we have a confederate memorial on the grounds it seems like an appropriate thing to put there).
I think it would be nice though to have a plaque next to the flag that said something like "This flag flies for the the eternal honor of the brave men and women of SC who gave their lives in defense of their state. It also flies to recall the eternal shame of their leaders who began a war to defend an evil cause and of those citizens who later flew it as a symbol of oppression."
Of course it wouldn't make some on either extreme happy (those who can't admit that most of those fighting weren't fighting for slavery, and those who haven't read the South Carolina Secession Declaration or ever seen pictures of the flag being flown by racists).
Posted by: just saying | Jul 18, 2008 3:12:47 PM
I was just thinking yesterday about writing The State about this very issue. A high school classmate of mine is now the new head of the national NAACP. He's a good guy, very smart, and I had high hopes he would move on from the flag and bike week and focus on issues that really affect the quality of life for African-Americans in SC. So I was really disappointed to hear about the NAACP's renewed anti-flag vigor.
I don't have the resources to talk to the people across the state whom the NAACP claims to represent and see what they really think about the flag. But The State does. I would really, really like to know if conventional wisdom is mistaken, and getting that flag off Statehouse grounds truly is a pressing issue. Or, are other issues like education, healthcare, and pockets of endemic racism and racial inequality more important?
Posted by: Susanna K. | Jul 18, 2008 3:40:56 PM
While it is accurate to say most fighting for the South didn't own slaves, to a man, they were all fighting for slavery.
Posted by: mattain | Jul 18, 2008 3:46:33 PM
A soldier fights for his unit and for his buddies and for his sense of honor. A soldier fights for the person to his left and for the person to his right and for the person who went on ahead and for the person who didn't come back.
Posted by: Michael Rodgers | Jul 18, 2008 3:58:26 PM
Susanna, the problem is that the Confederate flag symbolizes to so many the unequal education, inequalities in health care, and the racism that they have had to endure for so long. It was hijacked by the KKK and their ilk, without anyone standing up and demanding the symbol of their noble heritage back. When you see it waved proudly as a cross burns in your neighborhood (or your yard) you tend to develop a negative attitude about it. If we've got to keep it on the Statehouse grounds, can't we at least move it to the Tillman statue?
Posted by: Karen McLeod | Jul 18, 2008 4:16:07 PM
It amazes me how many people have their head in the sand and do not realize what a liability the confederate flag monument is to this state. It's not just about somebody's ancestor's glorious past. It's also about how that flag was shoved in so many people's faces as a warning to stay in their place. SC is a laughing stock because of this. Ever wonder why we don't get the really big high tech companies to come here? Why on earth would anybody want to bring bright and creative people to a state where people can't see past their ancestor's point of view.
Posted by: JimT | Jul 18, 2008 4:40:32 PM
Wishing that the Confederate flag will go away will never change history. It's part of our heritage--for all of us--and you can never make it disappear...no matter how hard you try. And that's what this is REALLY about: Making it go away. It's off of the top of the State House and in a memorial. That was the compromise... Can we please move on?
Posted by: AngieF | Jul 18, 2008 5:09:57 PM
It's amazing that the NAACP and many of you haven't taken the time to learn one iota of history. Slavery was simply a war tactic used by the Lincoln admin.to try and drum up insurection.He wanted to ship all blacks to an island and stated that he wouldn't free the first slave if the union of states could be resolved.As far as the boycott goes...Feel Free..When I boycott a store I dont go there...so Let the NAACP and all their followers boycott SC....LEAVE!! Dont stay here...dont contribute to the economy...go to another state where they dont fly the soldiers flag proudly. Go pump your cash into their economies with your head held high...I promise...no-one will beg you to come back.
Posted by: KevinM | Jul 18, 2008 5:35:56 PM
"Slavery was simply a war tactic used by the Lincoln admin.to try and drum up insurection."
So that's why the entire articles of seccession deal with nothing besides slavery? And why the racists following the war commonly used the flag as a symbol of their cause? [Note, that I made no argument as to what Lincoln would have done if the South would have just let the North not return run-aways and the other things they said they seceeded over.]
Posted by: just saying | Jul 18, 2008 6:25:11 PM
Please people. We've got so many real problems in this state (general ignorance,inadequate education, abysmally stupidelected officials) that it is beyond belief that the NAACP would even botherabout the battle flag. I get oppositionto the lottery, I get being upset at statetroopers that beat the sh** out of presumedinnocent dirtbags, but the battle flag?I guess drumming up money over non-issuesbeats having to find a real job.
Posted by: Bill G. | Jul 18, 2008 7:53:11 PM
Michael Rodgers and a few others here will continue to bury their head in the sand instead of facing real facts. Two flags fly from the seat of Government in SC now as a result of the compromise the US and SC flag (incidentally the SC Flag was adopted by the "Sovereign State of South Carolina" in January 1861, a real falg of rebellion!) and moved an entirely different flag to a historically appropriate location on the grounds of the State House. In addition the compromise protected in perpetuity all historical monuments in SC.
Now some here want to talk about the Klan and the Confederate Flag, well I propose you find a single image with the flag that fly's from the soldiers monument behing a klansman. On the other hand, you will find hundreds of pictures with the flag that flies from the top of the dome and Birth of a Nation actually gives us the opportunity to see it on film.
Find me records of slave ships on the middle passage that were flagged with the flag that flies from the Soldiers Monument. I can find you plenty of vessels flagged with a flag like the one at the top of the dome (fewer stars but the same flag!)
Rodger's logic is faulty and he fails the history lessons on the American Civil War and the United States during that time frame. We cannot and must not impose our modern views on a people from nearly 150 years ago without an attempt to understand the times, values, norms and mores.
Do we demand the removal of the Pope and Catholicism because of the Inquisition? Spain's flag should be banned because of the crimes committed on the indigenous peoples of Mezo America!
Take a look at the 7 sponsors of the Hose Bill Rodger's is pushing - I don't think you will be surprised that they are all young Black men. They have every right to push this bill and i am glad they have the opportunity to do so but don't play this off like there is bi-partisan support for this bill.
There are plenty of problems in Sc that we need to fix, the flag is not one until we allow them to make it one - again. This horse is dead and buried and the stink had even begun to wear off. Noe Rodgers wants to see his name in the news. Please find another Liberal Cause to support that really can have a real, positive impact on the people of SC, not just another talking point.
Posted by: Facts not Fluff | Jul 18, 2008 8:24:52 PM
As long as the flag flies on the state house grounds it will be associated with the government of this state. It belongs in a museum where it can be displayed in a setting describing its glorious and inglorious history.
People can say the horse is dead, but as long as it is fodder for late night comedians and out of state editorials, it's not really as dead as some say.
Posted by: JimT | Jul 18, 2008 9:33:59 PM
Haven't been on this site in a couple of years, and for good reason. It's still pure garbage.
Posted by: SGantt13 | Jul 18, 2008 9:43:03 PM
Summary of Facts not Fluff's argument: The falg that fly's behing the soldiers monument is just swell; reject the Sc Hose Bill that Rodger's is pushing noe!
Posted by: Abby | Jul 18, 2008 10:08:13 PM
Lee is 100% correct. I left Columbia in 1998 and have been back for about a year. When I was in Raleigh, DC and Miami I was asked lots of questions about SC. Not one person ever asked me about the flag. Not one. Should the NAACP be successful in getting it removed, I won't lose any sleep. Likewise, should it ever be placed back up on the dome, I won't lose any sleep. BTW, how come no one ever asks Fritz why it was flown on top of the State House anyway, since he was the Governor who signed the bill that put it on top of the dome in the first place?
Posted by: Robert | Jul 18, 2008 11:54:07 PM
For some reason, South Carolinians seem to have kept a chip on their shoulders about the Civil War era while our neighbors to the north and to the south have moved beyond this issue. The Confederate Battle Flag flying on the State House grounds is the most visible edification of this attitude and it is holding our state back from reaching its economic potential.
Until we rid ourselves of these state-sponsored reminders of a failed era, we will never reach our potential as a state and that is a darn shame. South Carolina is such a beautiful state and many wonderful people reside here, so why do we let that inept State Legislature of ours keep us mired in the dark ages? It is time to clean house of the dinosaurs that keep us chained to the past and fill the State House with leaders who will bring us into the 21st century. Since Governor Sanford and the current State Legislature are not willing to spend political capital to solve issues that affect the state, we need to elect individuals that will.
Posted by: Matt Tischler | Jul 19, 2008 1:45:05 AM
This is primarily an issue outsiders get worked up about. As a sovereign State, we should decide this matter on our own without anyone else butting in. The effort to pull down our statues, take down our flags, re-write our history books, flood TV with anti-Southern propaganda, etc. is nothing short of cultural genocide against us as a unique culture. I for one have had enough.
Posted by: Michael | Jul 19, 2008 1:55:34 AM
Keep our flag - get rid of the traitors.
Posted by: Michael | Jul 19, 2008 1:57:38 AM
Just returned last week from a vacation at Ocean Lakes campground in Myrtle Beach. Enjoyed the week - until the last 2 days. Seems a cadre of youthful blacks also decided to vacation there as well. Cruising around in thier tricked out neon glowing truck with extremely loud rap BOOM BOOM BOOM shattered the peaceful silence until well after 12am both evenings. If a boycott would keep such disrespect out of the peaceful quiet of precious family time I am all for it.
Posted by: Billy | Jul 19, 2008 2:39:20 AM
KevinM,
Wasn't the 'slavery' issue (lack of FedGov enforcement of US Laws on the subject) mentioned in like, just 7 of the 13 secession documents. The Indian Nations didn't use that language either in thier joining the Confederacy.
Wasn't there about 2 months of peace between the legal secession of the original 7 southern states and Lincoln's illegal call for 75,000 troops to invade a foriegn country - which led to the other 6 states pulling out.
Tell me again the reasons Lincoln gave to invade, how many times the 'abolition of slavery' was used as a war cry by the US Govt in 1861.
Please either you, Mr. Rodgers or Mr. Warthen provide a link or actual photo showing linkage between the square Battleflag of the Army of Northern Virginia flown at the SC Soldier's Monument and ANY hate group.
Could anyone give a serious explaination as to why Lincoln supported slavery forever via the Corwin Amendment and his Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single slave where he presided over.
Posted by: Billy | Jul 19, 2008 3:05:40 AM
Lee, Billy, Facts not Fluff, Robert, and others,
Not good enough. Mark Sanford has stipulated correctly that the people (everybody) aren't happy. JimT has shown leadership on this issue, by saying that South Carolina deserves more than
"It's complicated."
"It doesn't bother me."
"No one mentions it to me except during elections."
"No one mentions it to me except during March Madness."
Let's put it another way. If we're not celebrating the "compromise," then we're not happy. If no one from out of state asks you about the result of 50 years of negotiation that dominated the state for more than 5 years, then the result apparently is not worth celebrating.
South Carolina is a brand. If everybody (anybody!) was happy, truly happy, then the fact that SC is the only state in the USA that flies the Confederate flag would be on page 1 of every travel brochure. Page 1.
H-3588 lets us commemorate the Confederate part of our history in a way that can go on page 1 of our travel brochures.
Randy Burbage, South Carolina division commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans said, “They (NAACP) want me to respect their heritage, and yet they won’t respect mine.”
Offer made and offer accepted. Deal. Deal. Done and done. It's win-win. H-3588 respects the SCV's heritage. The ball is in the legislature's court. The sponsors of H-3588 have taken Mr. Burbage up on his offer.
So Lee, et al., your old, tired, and usually smug and facetious arguments won't cut it anymore. You have to try to prove that H-3588 doesn't respect "heritage." You have to try to say that the state flag of South Carolina was not revered by our Confederate soldiers. You have to try to say that nobody from the heritage crowd would want to put the state of SC's official commemoration ceremony of Confederate Memorial Day on Page 1 of our official travel brochure.
You will not be able to persuade anybody with those arguments, but good luck, if you're so motivated.
Posted by: Michael Rodgers | Jul 19, 2008 6:14:07 AM
